Interviewee

David Doeringsfeld

Port of Lewiston, Idaho; General Manager

Interviewers

Alison M Jones

NWNL Director and Photographer

Barbara Folger

Member of NWNL Snake River Expedition, Photographer

Port of Lewiston, on May 13, 2014

Introductory Note

On this Snake River expedition NWNL heard many voices expressing diverging interests for their own best outcomes: from the Nez Perce Nation’s value of salmon migrations to farmers relying on irrigation water from the Snake, to farmers promoting a no-till process to protect their soil, and from fishermen, boaters, barge operators, tourists….. and more. The crux of their discussion was predominantly whether the Lower 4 Snake River Dams were beneficial or not to their interests – ranging from environmental to economic points of view. 

Our documentation of this wide range of issues would have been incomplete if we had not had this interview with the General Manager of the Port of Lewiston. We had heard many voices for removing the dams, and complaints about large megaloads rumbling down Wild and Scenic Hwy 12. We certainly needed to hear David’s clearly stated counterpoint. His willingness and ease in sitting down to discuss differences within his community was reassuring. 

The Port of Lewiston's grain silos and barge in foreground.

Outline

PORT of LEWISTON: BARGES, DAMS & POWER
COLUMBIA/SNAKE RIVER DAMS & POWER
PORT EXPANSION & RIVER DREDGING
FISH POPULATIONS
LEVEES and DAMS
BEING A PORT MANAGER
INLAND & INTERMODAL SHIPPING OPTIONS
MEGALOADS on WILD & SCENIC HWY 12

Key Quotes  I think we can have sustainable salmon and steelhead runs and still utilize the river system for commerce. This year, they’re forecasting 1.6 million salmon returning this fall. So obviously their numbers are getting stronger, not weaker. It’s a balance – not an either/or question of dams versus no dams. –David Doeringsfeld

If any of the 4 dams on the Columbia and 4 dams on the Snake went, that would end transportation above that dam. –David Doeringsfeld

All images © Alison M. Jones and Barbara Folger, unless otherwise noted. All rights reserved.

PORT of LEWISTON: BARGES, DAMS & POWER

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Hello. I just finished a walk on the levee and I got back to the office to hear they were loading the last container.  

NWNL/FOLGER Yes! And thank you for the fabulous tour we just had. 

NWNL/JONES  The tour was fascinating. Is it mostly wheat they are loading now?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Yes. All these barges will be full of wheat. The containerized products are peas and lentils. Garbanzo beans are also grown within the area. We move those ag products and timber – also goods to and from Clearwater Paper – the mill right over there. 

A container being loaded onto a barge on the Port of Lewiston dock.


NWNL/JONES  What does your job here entail? What are your specific responsibilities?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  As General Manager of the port I’m involved in intermodal transportation and economic development. The primary products shipped out of the Port of Lewiston are agricultural products and timber products. Specifically: wheat that’s grown within about 100-mile radius, as well as peas, lentils, garbanzo beans, and then paper products that are produced by primarily by Clearwater Paper. 

NWNL/FOLGER  You mentioned the other ports. What products do they distribute?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  There are three ports within a 5-mile radius. Beside us, there is the Port of Clarkston and the Port of Whitman County, aka the Wilma Site. The Port of Clarkston ships grain. The Port of Whitman County ships grain and timber products; and they have a lumber mill right there. The timber they ship out is put into barges and sent downriver to a facility that produces paper. 

The Port of Wilma with its megaloads transported via trucks on Highway 12.


NWNL/FOLGER  From across the river, we saw a couple of full barges. What are they carrying?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Those grain barges are full of soft white wheat, which is a niche product here in our area. We grow about 85% of soft white wheat  grown in the U.S. As well, we grow about 80% of peas and lentils grown in the U.S. They depend on the export opportunities that we have here due to the Columbia State River System. Our local agriculture market has created a niche to enable that everything we grow is shipped overseas. 

NWNL/FOLGER  What is the white wheat used for?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Our soft white wheat mostly goes to the Pacific Rim to be used for crackers, noodles and such by Asian countries. The barges on the other side are 3600-ton barges. One 3600-ton barge equals 36 railroad cars, or 144 trucks. One tug normally takes 4 barges in a tow, so the math is pretty easy: 4×144. That is the number of trucks that are taken off the roadway by utilizing the Columbia state river system.

NWNL/FOLGER  You mentioned that you have built some new facilities?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Recently, the Port of Lewiston built a dock extension here. What added 150 linear feet of dock. Before, we only had 125 feet of dock which meant we could only moor 1 barge at a time in front of our container dock facilities. That expansion allows us to moor 2 barges end to end and that allows us to safely load and unload two different barges at a time. It doubles our productivity, or efficiency and makes it a much safer work environment for our personnel. 

NWNL/FOLGER  How many containers go on a barge?  

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Well, today we shipped out a barge holding 104 containers. It depends upon the size of the barge, obviously. But the upper limit’s usually right around 100 containers. It depends on the time of the year and how busy we are. We can move 3 barges a week or maybe we move just 1 every other week, depending on the season. Normally just 1 container barge will fit into a tow. So, you’d have three grain barges and one container barge in a tow. 

View across Clearwater River of grain being loaded the Port of Lewiston onto a barge.


NWNL/FOLGER  Does the Port of Lewiston have other business ventures?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  We also have warehouse facilities here at the Port. We have a 150,000 square-foot warehouse used by companies in Lewiston. Primarily, though, Clearwater Paper utilizes that facility. We also have incubator facilities for start-up businesses that provide attractive lease rates to help them get off the ground. We own several buildings leased out to different businesses from  paper products to a winery and a company that manufactures guns. 

COLUMBIA/SNAKE RIVER DAMS & POWER

NWNL/FOLGER  How does your focus here on the Snake River relate to the Columbia River main stem?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Yes, we are part of the Columbia-Snake River System. The Port of Lewiston sits on the Clearwater River just upstream of its confluence with the Snake. Within the bigger system, the Port of Lewiston is 465 miles inland from the Pacific Ocean, which makes us the most inland port on the west coast. From the Pacific to here, there are 8 locks and dams: 4 on the Columbia and 4 on the Snake.

NWNL/FOLGER  Do you also get the hydroelectric power from the dams? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  I’m sure we do. There are local power companies and Clearwater Power that purchase power from BPA [Bonneville Power Authority]. 

NWNL/FOLGER  Are there other sources of power?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  There are wind turbines on hills in the Palouse and above the port springing up around the area. I know of a few between here and the TriCities; and there’s a very large wind farm between Lewiston and Spokane. 

NWNL/FOLGER  It’s amazing how many wind farms are appearing now. 

Wind turbines on hills in the Palouse near Dodge Junction.

PORT EXPANSION & RIVER DREDGING

NWNL/JONES  You mentioned an expansion of the port. Is that because container ships are being built bigger now? I hear the Panama Canal has had to expand. Does that affect you here?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  No, not like the Panama Canal expansion. 

NWNL/JONES  Yes, they are making bigger barges now. The Mississippi has that problem, but they can’t go deeper because of the infrastructure by the US Army Corps of Engineers. There isn’t a country in the world that could afford to do that. The Mississippi is maintained at a shallower depth of 9 feet.

USACE headquarters in the Lower Mississippi River Basin.


DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Whereas we’re maintained at 14 feet depth. But we don’t have to dredge from the mouth of the Columbia River to Lewiston, Idaho. There are just certain areas that require dredging, so it’s not a monumental task to do simple maintenance dredging. 

NWNL/FOLGER  Which is something that seems to be coming up now. 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Right, we need to dredge now. It appears that the interval between dredgings is somewhere between 7 or 8 years. I think the last time we dredged was 2006. 

The timing is impacted by sediment buildup. Right now, we need to dredge since we’re at the end of slack water at the Port of Lewiston. Our last dredging was 2006, so we’re on the outside edge of needing to dredge. 

NWNL/FOLGER  Is it more economical to dredge deeper with longer time spans? Who does the dredging? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  The Corps of Engineers does the dredging to maintain a 14-foot channel. The need is determined by buildup of sedimentation. About 20 years, there was a higher frequency of dredging. Maybe every 3 to 4 years. But money was a bit freer at that time. Funding is difficult no matter what, Dredging simply occurs when the need arises. 

Channel marker at the Hood and Columbia Rivers' confluence marking dredged route.


NWNL/JONES  You say you used to dredge every 3-4 years. Now it’s every 7-8. Is that because there’s less erosion off of farms now, as a result of better erosion control? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  I think the difference is partially due to better farm practices reducing erosion. However, the Corps has found most sedimentation comes out of the Salmon River area due to forest fires. Something like 80% of sedimentation comes from the Salmon River drainage which is Forest Service land, not farmland. So that’s really where most of that sedimentation is occurring. But that sediment flows down the Snake River; and the Port of Lewiston sits on the Clearwater River – just above its confluence with the Snake. I think sedimentation here is less than 20 years ago. 

New vegetation on Columbia's White Salmon River banks after removal of its Condit Dam reduces erosion.


NWNL/FOLGER  Is it a challenge for the Corps to do dredging?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Dredging used to be routine maintenance dredging; but there’s no such thing as “routine” anything anymore. And, so yeah, at this point, its — there’s a lot of scrutiny of dredging in Columbia-Snake River System by environmental groups. The tribes want to ensure fish are not harmed. So I think that there’s much more oversight of dredging and making sure its timing doesn’t harm the fish. The tribes are more concerned about increased turbidity during the dredging. So usually dredging occurs from December through February – the window when few fish are in the water. 

NWNL/FOLGER  Who does the barging transportation of fish around the dams? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  The Corps of Engineers collects fish at the dam. About half get over the spillway, and then half are collected via surface weirs or a conduit within the dam. 

FISH POPULATIONS

NWNL/JONES  A fisherman we met on the other side of the Clearwater said, “Oh, there are 9,000 fish coming in today.” Who’s counting those numbers and where is the count done? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Fish counts are done at each dam. There’s a fish window at each dam with a person who counts the fish as they come through. They can tell whether it’s a Chinook, steelhead or something else. 

Salmon and lamprey (lying along the bottom) in viewing window at Bonneville Dam's fish ladder.


NWNL/FOLGER  What do the salmon mean to you personally?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  I like to fish. That’s my interaction. 

NWNL/FOLGER  Yes, I like to fish also.  Do you hear fish-rights people voicing any problems with the Port of Lewiston?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  I don’t know of any with the Port of Lewiston, per se. I think they are more concerned with the interaction of river users and advocates for breaching dams versus users of the system who say, “OK, the answer is not either/or – but that you can have dams and fish runs at the same time.” 

Fishermen on Clearwater River, Snake River tributary.

LEVEES and DAMS

NWNL/FOLGER  Do you know how the City of Lewiston feels about their levees and sediment buildup increasing the possibility of water spilling over. Personally, as I look at it, the levee design was based on a 500-year flood and the freeboard levels on the levee system in Lewiston makes it still very, very safe. [Editor’s Note: Per FEMA, “freeboard” is an extra height above the Base Flood Elevation to address unknown or unexpected factors that could increase flood risks.] So I do not believe that there’s a concern that an eminent 500 year event would flood downtown Lewiston. 

NWNL/JONES  How was this levee system conceived and how were issues dealt with concerning the interplay between levees and dams? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Lewiston’s levee system is considered part of the Granite Dam. So, the levees and the dam here as far as the Corps of Engineers is concerned. Also, we’re at the very end of slack water, so the levee system around Lewiston is mainly protects the downtown Lewiston area.

Lower Granite Dam on the Snake River, creating Lake Bryan near Almota.


NWNL/JONES  When out on the docks, you referred to Lewiston as being “in a hole.”

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  I believe downtown Lewiston is about 8’ under the river’s water level because of the levee system. 

The Clearwater River at its confluence with the Snake River is a legal fishing site.


NWNL/FOLGER  Would any potential dam removal wipe out the Port of Lewiston?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  If any of the 4 dams on the Columbia and 4 dams on the Snake went, that would end transportation above that dam. Right now, the 4 Lower Snake River dams are probably getting the most scrutiny. 

NWNL/FOLGER  So, even though paddle wheelers came up here before, the barges are deeper? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Right. A grain barge drafts to 13’6” when loaded. They utilize every bit of draft available in the river system – whereas paddle wheelers are maybe drafting six, seven. 

NWNL/FOLGER  So Clearwater River’s depth is 14′ and your barges are 13’6? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Right. 

NWNL/JONES  That’s close. No wonder you worry…. 

Cattle grazing on Clearwater River.


DAVID DOERINGSFELD  But even a barge loaded to 13’6 doesn’t continuously skirt 6” above the bottom of the river between here and Portland. There are just a few spots where that’s the case. In most of the river, barges are in 50-80 feet of water. It is a changing topography.

NWNL/FOLGER  Do barge operators worry about silt buildup behind the dams? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Some dams are filling up with silt behind them, meaning they will be unusable within a few years.

NWNL/FOLGER  I wasn’t asking about dam stability – just navigation issues if rivers are too shallow. 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  The bigger concern with sedimentation is when you enter a lock on the downriver side That can complicate being able to navigate into the lock. In those cases, problems may involve rock outcroppings. 

When coming downriver, being able to approach the lock is easy. But when going upriver, you’re at a lower elevation, thus it’s shallower. Also, there were some rock outcroppings in certain areas when the dams went in. Maybe there wasn’t sufficient dredging done at that time. Anyway, outcroppings are still a concern. 

NWNL/JONES  Our first NWNL expedition covered the Columbia River from “Source to Sea” in 2007. I was told then that dams have a lifespan like humans; from 70 to 100 years. And, like us, they do deteriorate. The concrete begins to deteriorate; and the sediment buildup does occur behind dams pushing more and more pressure. So, how are these 4 Snake dams holding up? We are learning that dams have a lifetime and thus seeing some dams coming down. 

BEING A PORT MANAGER

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  As a Port Manager for the Port of Lewiston I don’t have the capacity to address dam infrastructure. I’ll leave that to the Corps of Engineers. But I do think it is a misconception that there’s huge sedimentation occurring on the upstream side of the dam and that somehow is impacting the reservoir getting shallower and shallower to a point where passage is impossible. Some of the places that you’re visiting, including Jackson, Wyoming, dams are already 100 years old. And as concrete ages, it doesn’t get softer and brittle –  it gets stronger over time. So, the idea that somehow dams are weakening and going to crumble and fall apart is not true.

NWNL/FOLGER  One dam we’ll visit is Swan Dam, an earthen dam. Having been built in 1902, it is in the National Historic Registry. It’s just fantastic. But back to this conversation, how did you become Port Manager?

Built in 1901, Swan Falls Dam is on the National Register of Historic Places.


DAVID DOERINGSFELD  I have no specific background; but some port managers have Ph. D.’s 

NWNL/FOLGER  Why did you become a port manager?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  I’ve lived in Lewiston, Idaho, for 30 years. The first 10 years, I worked for a small civil engineering firm doing projects for the Port of Lewiston. An opportunity came up 20 years ago and I was lucky enough to get the job. It’s been an exciting position. I’ve enjoyed it – and after 20 years, it seems like 10!.

NWNL/FOLGER  I understand you are responsible for assessing the Port of Lewiston since Idaho requires that periodically you have a strategic plan on your website.  

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  The Port of Lewiston recently updated its strategic plan. It’s not required but we try to do one every 5-6 years. And so we recently updated the port’s strategic plan. The mission of a port is to move barges up and down the river system and to create jobs. We govern and undertake our expenditures to create jobs in Nez Perce County and the state of Idaho. We accomplish that mission in 3 areas of intermodal transportation to create jobs in those areas: river, rail and roads; economic development; and international trading. 

NWNL/FOLGER  Do you have to seek the international trade? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  How the Port of Lewiston facilitates that trade is by primarily working with the State of Idaho’s Department of Commerce or Agriculture working with trade delegations as they come through the state. And when they visit here, they want to see if we have a country buying Idaho’s soft white wheat. As we host them, we talk about the advantages of customers buying Idaho soft white wheat. 

NWNL/FOLGER  It must be fascinating to meet so many people from overseas. 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  The peas and lentils could be going to India — and to Europe and South America. Many of the grain products and soft white wheat go primarily to the Pacific Rim. 

INLAND & INTERMODAL SHIPPING OPTIONS

NWNL/JONES  What are the management challenges of your job? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  There are challenges and opportunities at the Port of Lewiston. Looking to the future involves providing intermodal transportation the ability to move more cargo through the interior of the US. It’s happening in North Dakota where there are drill pipes, compressors, generators and more. Much of it is now routed through the Panama Canal to Gulf ports and then up through the US. But you can shave off thousands of nautical and miles by utilizing the Columbia/Snake River offloading at Lewiston and going west from here. That’s one opportunity that we’re exploring with logistics companies, saying, “Hey, give this route a shot versus your current route.” So that’s one of the things we’re focusing on. 

On the economic development side, we’re working with businesses, recruiting businesses, and helping local businesses expand. It might be building a warehouse for a company or incubator facilities – or just helping a guy working in his garage but ready to make that next step. It’s exciting to see somebody start with 1or 2 people and then have 30 people working for him.

NWNL/JONES  What partnerships have you developed so that products coming up the Columbia can be redistributed to North Dakota, South Dakota or wherever? Do you have partnerships with other transportation companies, particularly in Idaho?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD It is our job to go out there to knock on doors to find partnerships to move commodities from here to the US interior via our Columbia-Snake River system. Within about the last 3 years North Dakota’s Bakken oil fields have developed. We need to let people in North Dakota know that we exist and offer new opportunities for them. 

NWNL/JONES  Has the barge traffic on the Snake River stayed fairly consistent over the years?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  No, in fact, since the 2008 recession, our container volumes have fallen substantially mostly due to steamship lines coming into the port of Portland. There used to be 7 – now there are 3. That affects customers’ ability to containerize their products to overseas destinations. The bulk grain side remain relatively constant. But containerized products — we’re a small port. We were moving around 16, 17 thousand TEUs a year. [Ed Note: TEU is a shipping measurement term for a 20-foot equivalent unit of cargo capacity for container ships and ports.] There are 40-foot containers and 20-foot containers, so the common denominator is TEU/20-foot equivalent unit. That’s how ports measure volume. We’re moving 4,000-5,000 TEUs per year now. It’s starting to come back, but the Port of Lewiston is only as competitive as the Port of Portland is competitive. Right now, we’re hoping additional steamship lines begin calling again at the Port of Portland to allow our customers to get shipments to their destinations. 

NWNL/FOLGER  I asked a former Vancouver mayor how the Port of Portland was doing. He said there are more things being built down there. So I hope that there’ll be opportunities for you. 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  The challenge now is as much productivity as challenges out of the Port of Portland. We’re joined at the hip with the Port of Portland regarding container volume. 

The Port of St. Helens with a marina on backwaters of Multnomah Channel of Willamette River.


In 2007 we moved about 16,000 TEUs. The numbers are as strong if not stronger now in 2014 regarding export commodities. But now, they’re being trucked to Seattle or Tacoma where there are more opportunities for steamship lines. Now there is the advent of unit trains – but the cheapest way to move cargo is on water. Products from certain geographic regions will just always move by water. 

NWNL/FOLGER  Whatever’s cheapest for farmers to move their products, they’ll use!

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Correct. After you get a certain distance from Lewiston, you need to choose whether to truck to a nearby railhead or truck further to the river where it might be cheaper? Farmers figure costs down to a half a penny. 

Railroad tracks in Lewiston, with a view of the Snake River & Port of Lewiston beyond.


NWNL/JONES  Can you define the “intermodal transport” approach that requires farmers to consider costs?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD   Intermodal transportation can be traveling by river, rail or roads. It’s kind of like the “three Rs of transportation similar to the “three Rs of education.” For a port to be competitive, it must address all three of those areas, like a three-legged stool. A port doesn’t advocate for water transportation over rail over roadways, but instead is competitive in all three of those areas. 

A three-legged stool, as photographed by Alison M. Jones.


To characterize, there’s much controversy on the Columbia-Snake River system between navigational interests on the river and environmental interests in protecting salmon and steelhead runs. Unfortunately, the various camps — for and against dam breaching — have dug their heels in and people don’t talk to each other like they should. After doing this for 20 years, I’ve never seen this as an either/or situation. I think we can have sustainable salmon and steelhead runs and still utilize the river system for commerce. This year, they’re forecasting 1.6 million salmon returning this fall. So obviously their numbers are getting stronger, not weaker. It’s a balance — not an either/or question of dams versus no dams. 

NWNL/FOLGER  In your 20 years, have you been able to think of a group of people that somebody could get together so that everybody could win? We’ve got to figure this out — we really need a solution. 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Right now, we’re waiting to see how the current biological opinion will be viewed by a judge and whether it’s sufficient. I think that will determine the next step. 

NWNL/FOLGER  I wish people could talk to each other and come up with a solution.

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  I agree. But the issue is now so litigious. It’s an industry. Many attorneys are making money on this. I don’t even know if the attorneys represent the environment or themselves. 

NWNL/FOLGER  Are there people on the other side with whom you have good conversations in an effort to get the door open and a dialogue going? 

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  On a one-on-one basis, everybody gets along fine. Yes, the Port of Lewiston is opposed to dam breaching – and the Nez Perce Nation is in favor of it. But we work with, and I believe, we have excellent relations with the Nez Perce Nation. We agree to disagree on some subjects, and work together on others. That comes after working for 20 years balancing the future of salmon and steelhead runs. with a working river system. People have learned to work together. 

The problem is a dozen people around a table are likely to work something out. But in this case, there are now 300 people around the table making consensus more difficult. 

MEGALOADS on WILD & SCENIC HWY 12

NWNL/JONES  You mentioned transport from North Dakota’s Bakken field through here and on to the Pacific. The alternative is transport via ships through the Panama Canal which involves many more miles and the Wild and Scenic Highway 12. Do you consider having megaloads going along Highway 12 a problem?

A truck with controversial megaload on Wild and Scenic Highway 12.


DAVID DOERINGSFELD  Oversized equipment has utilized Highway 12 to get from Lewiston to Missoula, Montana and then further east. At the time, that was very large equipment: several hundred thousand tons, 24’ wide, 24’ high, and about 120’ long. Now the question is can we utilize Highway 12, a Wild and Scenic Highway to serve the US interior. A judge has ruled an injunction saying that that Wild and Scenic stretch cannot be used by oversized loads. The Forest Service is now in mediation with the environmental group that sued. 

The Port of Lewiston supports utilizing Highway 12. As a US Highway, it’s meant for commerce. Only one load could go at night from 10 pm to 5 am. From my perspective, we want to ensure a great experience for tourists driving Rt 12. But they won’t be bothered when a piece of oversized equipment rolls through in the middle of the night. That equipment is not deteriorating the road system, nor has anything accident happened. I think there should be a balance between utilizing the highway for commerce if it doesn’t hurt the environment. 

NWNL/JONES  Is there an alternative route?

DAVID DOERINGSFELD  There is an alternative route that goes up Highway 95 to Interstate 90 and across, but it has restrictive overpasses. Only Highway 12 has no overpasses, so it’s the only route possible for large road-blocking equipment after coming up on the Columbia-Snake River system to Lewiston. On our river system, they fit under all our bridges and through the 600′-long locks. Then the megaloads are offloaded here; grabbed by the trucks which drive to Montana and North Dakota via Highway 12. That Hwy 12 corridor is unique as it has no overpasses, so these oversized loads and a myriad of other products can be taken into the interior.

NWNL/FOLGER  David, we really appreciate your time and efforts to clarify a complicated situation. It’s important that No Water No Life hears all the voices of the river talk. We like to get people together. 

Posted by NWNL on November 13, 2024.
Transcription edited and condensed for clarity by Alison M. Jones.

All images © Alison M. Jones, unless otherwise noted. All rights reserved.